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already you've got ann romney's latest comments and paul ryan yesterday basically make the assertion that either calling out quote/unquote lies as the president and supporters referred to comments made by ryan during his big speech at the rnc and comments of mitt romney as either unsportsmanlike or in ryan's case, a way to demoralize people because you have no other default argument here. they're trying to counter this. >> right. >> i think we have been challenged on this, as well. you know this. there's a difference between someone's opinion and whether or not someone says a factory closed when it was not. that is not up for opinion. >> right. well, look. this election is the sky's green collection. we have little leverage it feels like to try to set the record straight as fairly as possible and we try to do and everybody's got their own study. everybody's got their own set of facts this time around and, you know, frustrating for those of us trying to get it as close to the truth as you possibly can. >> we'll see vice president joe biden do at least if some of the situations pop up
already you've got ann romney's latest comments and paul ryan yesterday basically make the assertion that either calling out quote/unquote lies as the president and supporters referred to comments made by ryan during his big speech at the rnc and comments of mitt romney as either unsportsmanlike or in ryan's case, a way to demoralize people because you have no other default argument here. they're trying to counter this. >> right. >> i think we have been challenged on this, as well....
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if romney can do it, surely they've taught paul ryan how to do it. to swerve away from his arch conservatism. >> this huge swerve that he's got to make. here's the problem. if the vice president is properly prepped for this debate, he's going to remind people of the points in paul ryan's belief system that actually discuss the idea of cruelty. the problem is him being a slick, good looking kid is going to be too good, how does he explain it, it just doesn't sound cruel. he's boxed in on a policy front and he doesn't have the experience as a candidate to really sort of make the pivot that romney did. >> joy read and karen finney, thank you for joining me. >> thanks. >>> coming up, you've heard richard shift defend big bird. tonight, he will join me later. and in the rewrite tonight, another episode of the politics of religion. a crazy republican congressman says the bible tells us everything we need to know about public policy. so i guess he's in favor of the death penalty for adultery. we'll find out coming up. [ thunder crashes ] [ female announcer
if romney can do it, surely they've taught paul ryan how to do it. to swerve away from his arch conservatism. >> this huge swerve that he's got to make. here's the problem. if the vice president is properly prepped for this debate, he's going to remind people of the points in paul ryan's belief system that actually discuss the idea of cruelty. the problem is him being a slick, good looking kid is going to be too good, how does he explain it, it just doesn't sound cruel. he's boxed in on a...
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Oct 11, 2012
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romney said today under duress that the romney/ryan position is the romney/ryan position, there's no difference between them. and he said you'll hear more about it at the vice presidential debate tomorrow. i bet you will. joining us now is steve kornacki, co-host of "the cycle." thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> the democrats have been aggressive in driving their campaigning on this issue, because they think that's a key issue for locking up the women's vote. with this walkback, this attempted and failed walkback that happened within the last 24 hours from the romney campaign, do you think that's going to have an impact there? >> yeah. there's some interesting data that came out in the last few days which i think is what was initially behind what mitt romney said, taking a more moderate position on abortion. first you had this poll that came out in ohio, showing obama ahead of romney by four. the gender gap in this thing was astounding. among men, romney had a 16-point lead in ohio. among women, 60-38, obama. that is like a 38-point gender gap. i have not seen someth
romney said today under duress that the romney/ryan position is the romney/ryan position, there's no difference between them. and he said you'll hear more about it at the vice presidential debate tomorrow. i bet you will. joining us now is steve kornacki, co-host of "the cycle." thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> the democrats have been aggressive in driving their campaigning on this issue, because they think that's a key issue for locking up the women's...
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Oct 11, 2012
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ryan is expected to win his house seat again this year and if the romney/ryan ticket does claim the white house, wisconsin will hold a special election to replace him. polling places are not doing enough to make buildings handicap accessible and companies that sell portable wheelchair ramps say they are not seeing the same number of sales as they did in 2008. even then less that a third of polling places were not handicap accessible. we are live in chat current.com/billpress current.com/billpress. [♪ theme music ♪] >> announcer: broadcasting across the nation, on your radio, and on current tv this is the "bill press show." >> bill: all eyes on lexington, kentucky tonight and all democratic hopes spin on jolten joe biden. give us a call at 866-55-press and go to current tv and chick on the chat room with a lot of your full court pressers across the land debating the issues here on the air. we'll tell you what is happening around the country and globe this is nat's headquarters as well. we're pretty disappointed in an loss to the cardinals yesterday. so sports politics religion sex, we
ryan is expected to win his house seat again this year and if the romney/ryan ticket does claim the white house, wisconsin will hold a special election to replace him. polling places are not doing enough to make buildings handicap accessible and companies that sell portable wheelchair ramps say they are not seeing the same number of sales as they did in 2008. even then less that a third of polling places were not handicap accessible. we are live in chat current.com/billpress...
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example, paul ryan and mitt romney. paul ryan's budget, huge opportunity, and of course the lies that paul ryan himself has uttered like in his convention speech. biden is not going to sit back and take that i assume. >> no, i don't think so. and i think people will be watching for daylight between paul ryan and mitt romney. paul ryan not wanting to drag his own career down with this guy who has been kind of on the losingen of the stick. we saw that happen with mccain and palin, right. somebody wanting to make their own career at the expense of someone else's. but joe biden is a thoughtful man, an experienced leader and he is committed to his partner in this, president obama. here is the other thing, joe biden is a heck of a story teller. his gaffes come with a lot of affection, because they are usually in the telling of a really important human story. >> jennifer: i agree with you. but do you go along with the convention wisdom that this debate matters so much more in light of the president's less than stellar performa
example, paul ryan and mitt romney. paul ryan's budget, huge opportunity, and of course the lies that paul ryan himself has uttered like in his convention speech. biden is not going to sit back and take that i assume. >> no, i don't think so. and i think people will be watching for daylight between paul ryan and mitt romney. paul ryan not wanting to drag his own career down with this guy who has been kind of on the losingen of the stick. we saw that happen with mccain and palin, right....
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the romney/ryan plan, is it politically unpopular? he has to bring that up. >> woodruff: how do you see it, mark? >> i would say with paul ryan, he's got to k k kp it going. the republicans are on a roll right now, they feel they're on a roll. but he should heed the council of robert frost to john kennedy who said be more boston and less harvard. i would say be more wisconsin more walk shaw than washington, d.c. he cannot give in words his powerpoint if he mentions sequestration oncetor committee as a whole or the motion to recommit eyes will glaze over he's got to stay on offense but at the same time he has to par tri differences between him and governor romney and especially changes that governor romney -- several incarnations that have gone to is going to parry that, not to get into the weeds but parry it. as far as joe biden, i think he's got a tougher but in many ways more simple. he's got to lift the spirits of the spirited -- dispirited democrats. i think he f he does that -- he is the happy warrior, very much so. a lot more so
the romney/ryan plan, is it politically unpopular? he has to bring that up. >> woodruff: how do you see it, mark? >> i would say with paul ryan, he's got to k k kp it going. the republicans are on a roll right now, they feel they're on a roll. but he should heed the council of robert frost to john kennedy who said be more boston and less harvard. i would say be more wisconsin more walk shaw than washington, d.c. he cannot give in words his powerpoint if he mentions sequestration...
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quite the generational gap that the romney campaign hopes to overcome by having ryan practice with 72-year-old olson. we're beginning to ron mott, and he's traveling with congressman ryan in florida. what kind of scoop did you get to the strategy? >> reporter: good day to you. paul ryan came down here to st. petersburg, but he's holed up in a hotel getting ready for the biggest 90-minute stretch of his political life on thursday night against vice president biden. both sides have played the lower expectations game. the romney/ryan team has said for weeks joe biden is one of the best debaters in washington, 40 years on the hill. obviously, he knows key policy issues like the judiciary and foreign relations with his time in the senate. he's been preparing paul ryan with former u.s. solicitor-general ted olson. they're going through a mock debate session and policy briefings. tomorrow he goes up to danville, kentucky. he has been ready for this and trying to remain relaxed over the past few days. took his kids out to a pumpkin patch and some reporters asked about the debate. oh, yeah, i
quite the generational gap that the romney campaign hopes to overcome by having ryan practice with 72-year-old olson. we're beginning to ron mott, and he's traveling with congressman ryan in florida. what kind of scoop did you get to the strategy? >> reporter: good day to you. paul ryan came down here to st. petersburg, but he's holed up in a hotel getting ready for the biggest 90-minute stretch of his political life on thursday night against vice president biden. both sides have played...
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the president's team said the debate exposed the risk of electing a romney/ryan ticket. the candidate also disagreed over foreign policy. congressman ryan pointing to the death of four americans in libya as the administration weakness on abroad while biden said romney's campaign talks first before they know what the facts are. back to you. >>> that cbs news poll found the overall impressions of both vice presidential candidate improved after the debate. 55% of those asked if bid inis somebody they can relate to. 48% for ryan. 74% also say that about ryan about being knowledgeable and 85 for biden. >>> cbsnews.com senior political reporter breaks down last night's faceoff. >> reporter: joe biden came out very aggressive in this debate and maintained that tone throughout. to republicans he was rude. they were using the word unhinged, complaining about his smirking. for democrats it's exactly what they wanted to see. a week ago president obama was very passive in his debate against mitt romney. it was frustrating for democrats. they wanted to see him take to it mitt romney.
the president's team said the debate exposed the risk of electing a romney/ryan ticket. the candidate also disagreed over foreign policy. congressman ryan pointing to the death of four americans in libya as the administration weakness on abroad while biden said romney's campaign talks first before they know what the facts are. back to you. >>> that cbs news poll found the overall impressions of both vice presidential candidate improved after the debate. 55% of those asked if bid inis...
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ryan said last night to governor romney was a car guy. well, if they had an elevator stack i guess he was. >> today the campaigning continues the post debate campaigning has already kicked into high gear. >> we're going to level the playing field. it's time to acknowledge what got us into this trouble in the first place. >> the vice president defends the status quo. >> that's a bunch of ma larky. the. >> paul ryan care about each and every american. >> stop caring about how you care about people. show me something. >> the table is now reset. >> with the v.p. debate now over. >> who gets to hit the panic button next? >> with 25 days until the presidential election, the obama re-election campaign is seizing on this statement by paul ryan in last night's debate. >> if the romney/ryan ticket is elected, should those who believe that abortion should remain legal be worried? >> we don't think that unelected judges should make this decision, that people through their elected representatives, in reaching a consensus in society through a democrati
ryan said last night to governor romney was a car guy. well, if they had an elevator stack i guess he was. >> today the campaigning continues the post debate campaigning has already kicked into high gear. >> we're going to level the playing field. it's time to acknowledge what got us into this trouble in the first place. >> the vice president defends the status quo. >> that's a bunch of ma larky. the. >> paul ryan care about each and every american. >> stop...
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>> well, i think it's interesting that paul ryan said that if romney and ryan get elected they're not doing anything about reinstating don't ask, don't tell, which contradict what romney said during the debates, the primary and the promises he made to the gop base. i would like to see them pressed on that. you know, lgbt people we tend to see progress under democratic administrations and not a lot of regress, sometimes benign, sames malicious neglect under republican administrations. >> finally, for you, what sort of message would you extend to lgbt youth. >> coming out is not the end it's better problems. when you first come out parents react negatively. it's important to have a backup plan, line up support. 40% of homeless teenagers are lgbt kids kicked out or thrown out after they came out. if you think your family might react negatively, have a place to go, have support, have friends who have offers you a couch. >> prepare. >> prepare. don't just come out blindly. ask for your parents' love and support but have a plan, a backup plan. >> dan savage, thank you. thank you for your ti
>> well, i think it's interesting that paul ryan said that if romney and ryan get elected they're not doing anything about reinstating don't ask, don't tell, which contradict what romney said during the debates, the primary and the promises he made to the gop base. i would like to see them pressed on that. you know, lgbt people we tend to see progress under democratic administrations and not a lot of regress, sometimes benign, sames malicious neglect under republican administrations....
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joe biden simply dismantled the romney/ryan world view. but also talk about how the right wingers are trying to make a big deal out of joe biden's smile. so what? i would have been outright laughing in paul ryan's face. joe biden was fed up and who could blame him? >> with all due respect, that's a bunch of malarkey. >> and why is that so? >> because not a single thing he said is accurate. >> this is a bunch of stuff. >> what do you mean a bunch of stuff? >> it's simply inaccurate. >> it's irish. >> thanks for the translation. okay. >> malarkey. a bunch of stuff. i love it. i love it. biden systematically took apart ryan's arguments for less government, let's accountability, let's community. it got so bad, paul ryan was driven to drink. literally. he went back to that cup of water over and over again. by our last count, at least 21 time. what's the matter there, mr. ryan? got a little cotton mouth? last night the romney/ryan effort was exposed as a shield for the extreme far right and vice president biden drove that point home again and ag
joe biden simply dismantled the romney/ryan world view. but also talk about how the right wingers are trying to make a big deal out of joe biden's smile. so what? i would have been outright laughing in paul ryan's face. joe biden was fed up and who could blame him? >> with all due respect, that's a bunch of malarkey. >> and why is that so? >> because not a single thing he said is accurate. >> this is a bunch of stuff. >> what do you mean a bunch of stuff? >>...
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debate, i don't think there's any doubt that congressman ryan and i, governor romney and the president, we have a fundamentally different vision for america. and quite frankly a fundamentally different value set. >> woodruff: democrats had been down after president obama's performance last week, but the vice-president aggressively challenged every point ryan made, prompting this exchange. >> mr. vice president, i know you're under a lot of duress... >> ( laughs ) >> ...to make up for lost ground, but i think people would be better served if we don't keep interrupting each other. >> well, don't take all the four minutes, then. >> woodruff: the president was quick to hail that performance immediately after the debate. >> i thought joe biden was terrific tonight. i could not be prouder of him. i thought he made a very strong case. >> woodruff: republican ryan sounded upbeat about how he'd done at a diner this morning before leaving lexington, kentucky. >> i felt great about it. >> reporter: did you feel knocked around by him? >> no, it's what i expected. >> woodruff: and mitt romney prais
debate, i don't think there's any doubt that congressman ryan and i, governor romney and the president, we have a fundamentally different vision for america. and quite frankly a fundamentally different value set. >> woodruff: democrats had been down after president obama's performance last week, but the vice-president aggressively challenged every point ryan made, prompting this exchange. >> mr. vice president, i know you're under a lot of duress... >> ( laughs ) >>...
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romney is going to have to do a little better than ryan did because ryan almost tack it a little too easily. jason? >> i agree. i think one of the problems with ryan's performance was allowing biden to get away with a lot of what you want to do, particularly on foreign policy, is similar to what we are doing. he has to differentiate themselves. they have to differentiates themselves on all these things from foreign policy to the domestic policy. but one of the weaknesses of the liar claim, i don't think it works well with the general public. all politicians they think stretch the truth. i don't know it's effective en those grounds alone. >> they aren't trying to repute romney, they are trying to ruin romney and they have been trying to do that from the beginning. i kind of degree with you, paul. >> think next week mitt romney has to call barack obama out in this tactic and put it in his face and tell the american people exactly what is going on here. >> let's look at a new mitt romney ad that is new on the jobs and economy. >> look at the evidence of the last four years. we have 23 m
romney is going to have to do a little better than ryan did because ryan almost tack it a little too easily. jason? >> i agree. i think one of the problems with ryan's performance was allowing biden to get away with a lot of what you want to do, particularly on foreign policy, is similar to what we are doing. he has to differentiate themselves. they have to differentiates themselves on all these things from foreign policy to the domestic policy. but one of the weaknesses of the liar...
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now they are trying to blame its romney-ryan particular for making this an issue. with respect to iraq, we had the same position before the withdrawal which was, we agreed with the obama administration. let's have a aeeme to make sure we secure our game. the vice president was put in charge of those negotiations by president obama. and they failed to get the agreement. we don't have a force as agreement because they failed to get one. that is what we are talking about. and when it comes to our veterans, we owe them a great debt of gratitude. for what they've done for us. including your son, beau, but we also want to make sure we don't lose the things we fought so hard to get. and with respect to afghan tan, the 2014 deadline, we agreed with the 2014 transition am but what we ao wa to isake sure we're not protect ing weakness abroad. and that's what is happening here. this benghazi issue would be a tragedy in and of itself. but unfortunately, it's indicative of a broader problem. and that is what we are watching on our tv screens is the unraveling of the obama forei
now they are trying to blame its romney-ryan particular for making this an issue. with respect to iraq, we had the same position before the withdrawal which was, we agreed with the obama administration. let's have a aeeme to make sure we secure our game. the vice president was put in charge of those negotiations by president obama. and they failed to get the agreement. we don't have a force as agreement because they failed to get one. that is what we are talking about. and when it comes to our...
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. >> the first two debates were paul ryan, mitt romney. the numbers that i have have shown a significant movement in the senior vote, but we're also, you know -- look, since 1952 dwight eisenhower there have been 15 presidential elections. democrats have won four. each one of those four johnson, carter, clinton, and obama have been won by people who eventually won the election. in florida he is behind. i mean, obama. if he is behind in florida, according to florida history, he is not going to win the general election. >> let's get this straight on medicare. the $700 billion plus that al and other republicans speak about coming out of medicare just so all of florida seniors knows, that's coming out of insurance companies and providers who are charging too much. >> providers are -- but, okay, let me just -- i don't want to get into the weeds on this number because nobody ever comes to an agreement on it, but a provider is a doctor, and what we know is that those folks on medicare have to struggle sometimes to find a doctor who will accept me
. >> the first two debates were paul ryan, mitt romney. the numbers that i have have shown a significant movement in the senior vote, but we're also, you know -- look, since 1952 dwight eisenhower there have been 15 presidential elections. democrats have won four. each one of those four johnson, carter, clinton, and obama have been won by people who eventually won the election. in florida he is behind. i mean, obama. if he is behind in florida, according to florida history, he is not...
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obviously, ron, we see which direction the romney/ryan ticket would like to at least take this week? >> reporter: claktly. hey there, tamron. hope you can hear me over the rumble of the bus. we're heading into detroit. i'm sure the campaign could pack more stuff into the schedule today. in addition to the rally if in toledo where you heard paul ryan, he has three events around the detroit area. this is romney's old stomping ground from his younger days, and they're not quite ready to give up on a michigan where they think they can make a play. he's on his way to an education roundtable and a fund-raiser and another big rally tonight planned. another thing unusual about his speech in toledo was the fact it was much longer than usual. he went 33 minutes or so. usually we get a15, 20 minutes out of him and he doesn't spend a lot of time talking about foreign policy. because the crowd saw governor romney's speech at the virginia military institute, paul ryan wanted to talk a little bit about that and perhaps giving him a little more of a chance to get some of the foreign policy stuff out
obviously, ron, we see which direction the romney/ryan ticket would like to at least take this week? >> reporter: claktly. hey there, tamron. hope you can hear me over the rumble of the bus. we're heading into detroit. i'm sure the campaign could pack more stuff into the schedule today. in addition to the rally if in toledo where you heard paul ryan, he has three events around the detroit area. this is romney's old stomping ground from his younger days, and they're not quite ready to give...
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of medicaid. >> romney/ryan tax plan will raise taxes on middle-class families with a child, one or more children by an additional $2,000 a year. >> don't tell me what you value. show me your budget and i'll tell you what the value. >>> vice president biden will have some serious things to say this thursday. joining me is steve carnaci, co-host of "the cycle. he's writing in "salon" today about paul ryan's thing skin. thanks for coming on the show. >> thanks for having me. is he ready for joe biden? >> it's an open question. one thing we found is he hasn't been ready forred kind of scrutiny that comes with a national spot light. there have been several interviews, in what we all assumed would be friendly turf fox news where at the slightest bit of scrutiny on follow-up questions he's gotten very testy and evasive. you can think of early on back in august in an interview, how long it would take mitt romney's budget to be balance. he said i don't want to be all wonky on you, but i don't know. and chris wallace started grilling him, a promise it will be deficit neutral and very vague p
of medicaid. >> romney/ryan tax plan will raise taxes on middle-class families with a child, one or more children by an additional $2,000 a year. >> don't tell me what you value. show me your budget and i'll tell you what the value. >>> vice president biden will have some serious things to say this thursday. joining me is steve carnaci, co-host of "the cycle. he's writing in "salon" today about paul ryan's thing skin. thanks for coming on the show. >>...
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he may have to do what romney did -- ryan may have to do what romney did. >> following the debate last week, the commission on presidential debates issued this statement, following criticism of jim lehrer's performance in the first debate. robert watson, you were quite critical of jim lehrer last week. will we see a difference this week? >> i suspect we will. if i could quickly jump on the previous comment, i think we know that joe biden and paul ryan are both tough-nosed guys who can play pretty effectively, but what is interesting is they are so completely different. when joe biden first took his seat in the senate, paul ryan was about three years old. paul ryan has to be careful about looking disrespectful to someone a lot older than him. paul ryan, as was correctly noted earlier, tends to be kind of a policy wonk. that sometimes does not resonate. it did not resonate with obama earlier. joe biden like to connect in the gut. scranton joe likes to talk to the audience. we are going to see a completely different styles. i was very critical of jim lehrer in blogs and commentary. people
he may have to do what romney did -- ryan may have to do what romney did. >> following the debate last week, the commission on presidential debates issued this statement, following criticism of jim lehrer's performance in the first debate. robert watson, you were quite critical of jim lehrer last week. will we see a difference this week? >> i suspect we will. if i could quickly jump on the previous comment, i think we know that joe biden and paul ryan are both tough-nosed guys who...
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romney has been weak on specifics. ryan has specifics. they're going to tie whatever specifics he has to romney. >> ryan is going to be brilliant. >> bill: whatever they do, it's a matter of i think both candidates will be very, very cautious. the reason i say that ryan lost it today was because you have to assume if you're ryan or romney that the press wants to hurt you, no matter who it is. when they do something as this reporter did, that was pretty stupid, you just laugh about it. come on. you roll your eyes. you don't react in a serious way because then that will be used against you. all right. >> remember, beating up on the left wing press works to the republican candidate's advantage every time. >> bill: if i had done that, if he said listen, you pinhead, that was an unfair question. but it looked like he wanted to get away from him so it didn't look good. later, john stossel on why some companies are hurting their workers over obamacare. interesting report. plus, selling your stuff. very quietly the supreme court may stop us from
romney has been weak on specifics. ryan has specifics. they're going to tie whatever specifics he has to romney. >> ryan is going to be brilliant. >> bill: whatever they do, it's a matter of i think both candidates will be very, very cautious. the reason i say that ryan lost it today was because you have to assume if you're ryan or romney that the press wants to hurt you, no matter who it is. when they do something as this reporter did, that was pretty stupid, you just laugh about...
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and the romney ryan one of the vents during the summit your way out the romney ryan plan obviously has holes in it and when you talk about these things and the reasonable thing that we can talk about is that when they say they're going to close loopholes they really haven't addressed specifics and there's a reason for that this is politically toxic to try and do that because there's a lot of industries and a lot of voters who are waiting so they see the reality they don't have the same time though the same time you can get all you want but at the same time when it comes to the path to prosperity i think that ryan is being honest there with the prospect of a lot some place but ryan's way out there and it's plain but that's that's that's when you're running on there's no there's no hollowness to the reality that we are heading towards a fiscal cliff and the only ticket this really looking to address that right now is the republican ticket there's no question of us as you say and this is part of the problem the problem that you have is you have the president who's laid out specifically wa
and the romney ryan one of the vents during the summit your way out the romney ryan plan obviously has holes in it and when you talk about these things and the reasonable thing that we can talk about is that when they say they're going to close loopholes they really haven't addressed specifics and there's a reason for that this is politically toxic to try and do that because there's a lot of industries and a lot of voters who are waiting so they see the reality they don't have the same time...
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Oct 13, 2012
10/12
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you asked corey how will the romney/ryan plan help job creation. he didn't answer it. he attacked the obama administration. that's what we see time and time again by the radical romney plan is that they have no specifics. the fact of the matter is over the last 31 months, we've had private sector job growth, created 5.1 million new jobs. and as of last friday, we had the lowest unemployment rate we've enjoyed in the last four years. does more need to happen? of course it does. but that's why the president is going to win virginia, because he is talking about growing the middle class out and talking about job creation and strengthening our economy in ways that will invest for the future. he has a plan. the other side doesn't. it's resonating in virginia. and we're going to make history again in virginia and deliver to it barack obama. >> corey, the thinking was at the beginning of this campaign, the thinking was that the governor would be able to essentially run on the economy, that the unemployment numbers and that people's perceptions of the economy, that they were go
you asked corey how will the romney/ryan plan help job creation. he didn't answer it. he attacked the obama administration. that's what we see time and time again by the radical romney plan is that they have no specifics. the fact of the matter is over the last 31 months, we've had private sector job growth, created 5.1 million new jobs. and as of last friday, we had the lowest unemployment rate we've enjoyed in the last four years. does more need to happen? of course it does. but that's why...